In2thefray UPDATES ETC.
Summer Fray-cation page is up for random comments,questions etc. Akismet is failing so if you place a link it goes to moderation. If you try the post the article instead it WILL BE DELETED. Patience is a virtue and space is mine not yours.So-Let's Jump into some Frays.
Only Justice Clarence Thomas dissented. He complained the ruling “grants judges sweeping authority to second guess the measures that these officials take to maintain discipline in their schools and ensure the health and safety of the students in their charge.”
That’s part of what he said as the lone dissenting voice in the Safford v Redding case. Redding being the teenage girl stripped down by school officials in search of ibuprofen.
I’ve seen a couple of the posts on the subject that are on offer on the WPPBA tag today. I have to say the only one I really like is Marcs at IOEOTO.
Anyway this is one of those stories that warrants me putting in my 2 cents so here goes.
I actually like Sanford and contrary to some I don’t find the hypocrisy factor so alarming. His condemnation of Bill Clinton back in the Lewinsky days and his stance on gay marriage are not the points of hypocrisy people want you to think they are. These are cloud cover talking points for people with bigger agendas. As governor of a very red state he has really no choice on the gay marriage controversy. If you think that isn’t true then you better hold the next governor of Massachusetts to the same thinking any number of issues. The personal will of the executive is not always the same as the governed. As for voting to impeach Clinton years ago. What ? Change to much to ask for ?
Let me tell you the truth.
Sanford should not resign.
He should resign himself that his future in SC politics is over but he should stay through his term. I think it is important he do so if for no other reason that he needs to play the bigger role for the future of the GOP if he’s up for it. He has a job to do and if the people of South Carolina don’t want him they need to step up and impeach him. Democracy isn’t about the easy way of doing something .
Sanford should Divorce
Yeah the fundamentalists aren’t going to love him if he does but he’s essentially done with them no matter. If he truly feels his marriage is what his words and actions indicate he should leave the marriage. This is also key to continuing to fight for a better GOP if he chooses to step up.
The GOP and Sanford
The GOP has a choice to make. They can throw Sanford under the bus if they want,or they can choose to try to get the Party in shape to win elections. A repentant Sanford is more than good enough to work with other leaders in the GOP to shape the Party future.
Don’t get mad Ronald it’s not trademark infringement.
One billion people throughout the world suffer from hunger, a figure which has increased by 100 million because of the global financial crisis, says the UN.
Anybody else noticing a common theme in our international problems lately ????
Kim Jong Il :North Korea
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad :Iran
Dmitry Medvedev: Russia
Hu Jintao : China
Although I have serious doubts regards the whole coup angle, and also question the legitimacy of Western media preachings of the election I do find this interesting.
The media is definitely experiencing blackouts. Tehran Times has not been updated,PressTV server is overloaded or can’t be found,and IRIB/english won’t come up.
AlJazeera reports:
Al Jazeera’s Teymoor Nabili, reporting from Tehran, said that it had become increasingly difficult for the media to operate in Iran since the elections results were announced on Saturday.
“Day-by-day our ability to access any information has been slowly whittled away,” he said.
“I now stand in a position where I am no longer allowed to take a camera out onto the streets, I am not even sure if I can walk out onto the streets with a mobile phone without getting into trouble. AJ
Definitely interesting.
There is a lot of buzz here in the Bay State about the recent tragic death of a 4 year old girl. She was on a scooter in a crosswalk,with her family and was struck by an elderly driver.
The Bay State has a very poor and in my opinion indefensible position on elderly drivers. The denial of medical reality and the impact it has on one’s ability to operate a couple of tons of steel is crazy. Other states require retests and shorter periods of validity for licenses issued to older folks. It is past time for the cowards on Beacon Hill to do something.
Local talk radio host Michael Graham is all over this issue and I share his ire embodied in this statement.
Actually, it’s even more pathetic because it’s Massachusetts. Democrat legislators have a 90%+ likelihood of re-election no matter what they do. Most of them didn’t even have opponents last year. There’s about a 1% chance that passing an elderly driver law would impact their political careers. But your legislator is such a craven coward he won’t even take that 1% chance.
No, he’d rather see a four-year-old lying in a puddle of blood on his street than see a handful of angry AARPers on his doorstep. Here
Fear and hatred on the streets of Luton
When troops returning from Iraq marched through Luton, all hell broke loose. Muslims protested, white residents rioted and the Sikh mayor was viciously attacked. Can this multicultural community ever find peace — or is this eruption of long-simmering tensions a sign of even worse to come?
That’s the header on a Times piece that actually resembles journalism on the matter. I invite people to read it HERE
On Saturday, North Korea’s Foreign Ministry threatened war on any country that dared to stop its ships on the high seas under the new sanctions approved by the U.N. Security Council on Friday as punishment for the North’s latest nuclear test.
I am so done with these tree bark eating fucks. If North Korea is so demented to think they can wage a nuclear war on the World so be it. Let’s irradiate these stupid fucks and be done with it.
Seriously though. We cannot tolerate being held up to any degree by the Pyongyang gang. My heart goes out to the diminished and demoralized masses of NK. These people are lost though to generations of isolation and propaganda. If the world is not willing to liberate and attempt to rehabilitate the North via a Kim assassination then we must be willing to bring peace to the peninsula via the glowing mushroom. You decide.
Some quick facts for the North korea crowd:
- The USA does NOT have 1000 nukes in South Korea.
- You cannot reach any of the nations that are going to stand tall on the sanctions.
- North Korea will cease to exist after 3 or 4 warheads hit your country. That’s half a Trident D5. You’ll get the bonus plan baby.
Sorry for the title. I am going with the “in for a penny in for a pound (£)” thing here. I have done a virtual friend a disservice and am trying to make myself clear. The friend being Marc at In One Ear out the Other. He has a very quick post on the shooting/shooter at the Holocaust Museum in the US capital today. (post here)
I made an off the cuff comment of :
When I saw the news I was like “Look at all the homeland security funds being wasted for a minor shooting”
You see I’ve recently acquired Verizon FiOS so the nauseating news cycling is still new to me. I saw some CNN and MSNBC feed of the 911 response on scene outside the place. My god folks ! It was a minor shooting. There were probably 2-3 people somewhere else in the District bleeding from crime related wounds and I’m doubting the response was comparable.
I have a 911 past and this incident highlights one of those things that pisses me off about our culture today.
The media reports the stories based on “if it bleeds it leads” . The subtext being if it’s white,blonde, etc. it’s even better. The media will leg hump this story unless something else comes up.
The people fall all along a wide spectrum. There are those that gleefully or at least willingly talk to the media. Others exposed to it come out with opinions and concerns and feed on the sensationalism of it. Then still others will scream for gun control,anti-Semitism and tourism concerns amongst a litany of other items. Blah !
The responders. Folks we’re supposed to be professionals. We should gage and react to incidents in real time and on the footing that every call is a unique call. And by all means when you discover a geriatric nutter assailant and a couple of victims you stand down and call off the show. Patients are transported,suspects arrested and transported and any investigation undertaken by a defined cadre of professionals. Pouring in multiple agencies to log in your usefulness to mankind come budget time isn’t the reason you pin on a badge.
So there it is. My confession that news is annoying and that the cloud that impending “man made disasters” lurk everywhere is something that hasn’t changed. Just the names and faces.
Sharing a link to an Economist article I recently read regarding aid from authoritarian governments.
Aid is a big issue with me in that I’ve seen how it is almost NEVER a helping hand kind of thing. It’s always more of a leash grip and sometimes a grasp at the throat. it doesn’t matter if it’s a western democracy,a long time NGO, or the aspiring power merchants of the likes of Iran,China or Venezuela.
There have been some great stories especially out of Africa how aid has actually helped hobble develop and left the people in suffering ways.
All in all we the regular folks need to be vigilant where we send our money. It doesn’t matter if it is via taxes or donations. We cannot remain blind to the end results of the “gift”.
More in line with the Economist piece though one can see that the world is awash in a war. This one is more like a very aggressive pillow fight. Soft power diplomacy of aid (read bribes,extortion etc) is being waged by countries like China,Iran and Venezuela. The motives are clear and in varying lengths we all need to wake up a bit on this one. The Chinese especially are acting in an overt manner that tells me the pillow is getting some coin rolls tossed in. That’s a meaningful whack to the side of the head. I dig how people take the view America has been far from kind and benevolent. We’ve sucked in many many cases.
Changing the player doesn’t make the game better.
Much of their aid is overtly political. Iran’s offer of free electricity to Shia parts of Iraq is one example, Venezuela’s bankrolling of Cuba another. Most is steered towards a few friendly regimes, or (in China’s case) places with natural resources. China has pledged $600m to Cambodia, more than ten times as much as America. It has given Myanmar $400m in the past five years; American aid to the country is worth about $12m a year.
Naturally, help from harsh regimes is rarely encumbered with pesky demands for good governance. This makes it welcome to corrupt officials and even to those merely sick of being lectured by Westerners. Alas, it can encourage bad governance. China, the report says, is training 1,000 Central Asian policemen and judicial officials “most of whom could be classified as working in anti-democratic enterprises”. The report concludes that authoritarian regimes are using aid to boost their soft power. If so, the spread of authoritarian aid is a challenge to more than just Western ideas of the right sort of giving. Economist
Wake up folks !
“We are Muslims, we pray regularly and read the Koran. We don’t want them, they have to go,” resident Samiullah Khan said by telephone. “Attacking a mosque is not Islam. They’re not Muslim.”
Seems the Taliban blew up a mosque in Pakistan and the locals are taking exception. The villagers formed a group of around 500 and hunted down the T-Ban elements. They destroyed houses they hid in and killed some of them.
People that want to see change in Islam are wasting their time. People that want to see changes in how regular folks are stepping up against extremists, jihadists as some say-well you need too open up your eyes.
Back on 15 April I said this in a post titled In2 DHS Can’t fly without wings…
I have reached the tipping point on the issue of the DHS report on right wing extremism. News outlets and bloggers alike have jumped all over this story and have made it into something it never should’ve had the potential to be. For those especially that are either crying foul from the right or smugly claiming victory from the left I just have to say I think you’re both wrong.
I have to reiterate it today but this time in context of the buzz over the killing of Dr. Tiller,and the applauds being sent Napolitano’s way.
This isn’t to detract from my previous support of two good posts over at In One Ear…
“Twelve thousand citizens who made good-faith efforts to vote were disenfranchised, with a variety of reasons,” Friedberg said.
Franken attorney Marc Elias argued that Coleman’s team had failed to show specific voters were disenfranchised.
“This isn’t evidence, this is an argument,” Elias said. Yahoo/AP
Is the party that supposedly cares about voters rights getting a little pissy over adding to 312 votes ? Is the party that once wanted the country to be able to move on now refusing to move on?
I don’t know which hypocrisy is more aggravating.
I’m not from Mn. and had previously thought Coleman should just chill out and step aside. Now I’m thinking he should keep fighting. Was that the plan ?
Analysis
Protests arranged by Muslim migrants along with migrant advocacy groups, which began in Athens on May 29 and have the potential to last throughout the weekend, bear close watching. The demonstration follows similar protests by around 2,000 Muslim immigrants, mainly from South Asian and Middle Eastern countries and in their 20s and 30s, last week in response to allegations that a Greek policeman intentionally damaged a Koran during an identity check of migrants. The demonstrations turned violent, with an estimated 100 protesters tussling with the police, who dispersed the crowd with tear gas and eventually arrested 40 of the demonstrators.
While turnout for the fresh batch of demonstrations planned to last throughout the weekend could match or exceed numbers seen last week, STRATFOR does not expect these protests to draw the significantly expanded numbers of Muslim demonstrators anticipated by some media outlets. This can be attributed to the diversity of Greece’s Muslim community. Still, various left- and right-wing Greek groups could use the Muslim protests as cause to restart their battle against one another. Already, a radical right-wing group has staged counterdemonstrations to mark the May 29, 1453, fall of Constantinople to the Turks.
At slightly more than 800,000, Muslims make up nearly 10 percent of Greece’s population. Muslims in Greece fall into three broad categories: Albanian migrants (the largest subgroup at nearly 450,000), Thracian Muslims of varying ethnicities (numbering around 150,000 and mainly concentrated in the Thrace region of northeastern Greece near the Turkish border), and migrant Muslims from South Asia, the Middle East and North Africa (whose numbers are unknown, as many are undocumented). The Albanian migrants have been coming to Greece from Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo since the geopolitical shifts in the region of the early 1990s. The Thracian Muslims are of Turkish, Slavic or Roma ethnicity, and were left behind after population exchanges between Turkey and Greece following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1922. It is the third group, many of whose members are illegal immigrants, that is staging the current protests.
While the Albanian and Thracian Muslims certainly have grievances of their own against Athens, they are unlikely to join with migrant Muslims to express them. The Albanian minority in Greece (along with Albanians in general) for the most part define themselves by their ethnicity, culture and unique language; only rarely (and tangentially) do Albanians use Islam as a key identifier. Meanwhile, Thracian Muslims are either of Turkic, Slavic or Roma descent and therefore are culturally and ethnically (not to mention geographically, Thrace being far removed from Athens where most migrant Muslims live) disconnected from the protesters. It is highly unlikely that the first two groups will risk being equated by the general Greek population with radical Islam by joining protests spearheaded by the migrant Muslim population. Therefore, numbers cited in media reports of up to 700,000 Muslims in Athens protesting come May 29-31 are almost certainly blown out of proportion by conflating Albanian and Thracian Muslims with Greece’s very different migrant Muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Syria and Somalia.
The planned protests should therefore not be compared with rioting by Muslims in France, like the periodic outbursts of violence and social angst in the predominately Muslim banlieues of France. Though these Muslim-dominated French communities resemble the Athens demonstrators in that they are often disenfranchised youths, more often then not the French protesters have lived in France for years — often generations — and are French citizens. The Greek protests are more likely to resemble the protests that sprang across of Europe during the Danish cartoon controversy, where recent Muslim immigrants lashed out in response to what they perceived to be a cultural and religious discrimination.
While Greece already has faced numerous protests triggered by a December 2008 police shooting of a 15-year-old Greek youth, the underlying cause of those riots was the global economic recession and anti-government sentiment, especially by the radical left-wing and anarchist elements. Since then, left-wing, right-wing and anarchist groups have taken turns sowing violence in Greece, either through targeted attacks against each other or by various bombings against banking (a favorite target of anarchist groups) and migrant (a favorite target of the radical right groups) centers. These ideological groups represent the key social division in Greece, and while Muslims migrants may find sympathy from some left-wing groups, this is likely to be only temporary (and as a result of the left’s search for a lever to use against its right-wing opponents). If violence continues, intensifying and spreading, this most likely will be because it coalesces into right-left conflict and loses its “Muslim” character.
A final element to consider is the potential geographic diffusion of protests, a quintessentially European phenomenon, into broader demonstrations and violence across Europe. As Europe enters a “summer of rage,” the protests could set off counter demonstrations, particularly from radical right-wing groups, not just in Greece but across the region. This is especially a possibility in countries that have only recently become migrant destinations, like Greece, Italy, or Central European states like Hungary, Slovakia and Poland. These states do not have the institutional history and experience dealing with high numbers of migrants, nor with targeted xenophobic violence that West European states — which lived through waves of anti-immigrant violence throughout the post-World War II period — have.
STRATFOR will closely monitor the situation as it develops. The key aspect to watch is whether these demonstrations coalesce into larger or more violent protests, not involving the other two Muslim subgroups in Greece, but by right- and left-wing groups — particularly radical right-wing anti-immigrant groups — in what is already a tense economic and social climate.
So there’s a Catholic priest,Father Cutie (I kid you not), who has left the Church and signed on with the Episcopalians.
His sin being the scandal caused by getting caught on camera kissing a girlfriend.
You’d think the Catholic Church would be thankful he was kissing a woman.
Whether the news cycle will morph this into a wider public repudiation and or reinvigorated reexamination of the Catholic Church is yet to be see. The truth is the Church isn’t a democracy so the constant haranguing of the system by the masses are pathetic. Linking the story to other social commentary such as gay marriage is foreseeable and equally stupid.
Well there it is and one of the many source stories can be found here
I’ve seen it in a lot of places and it’s all the rage with the right.
At a recent conference, Powell stated, “Americans do want to pay taxes for services.” He also continued that “Americans are looking for more government in their life, not less.”
Help me out folks with some FULL CONTEXT !!!!!!!!!
No it’s not a radio station. The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative. Is it a good thing ? A bad thing ? What what what ????
Read on
Interesting piece on girls schools in Afghanistan getting threatened by the Taliban. The article (see link below) on Spiegel has a number of interesting layers to it. Let me explain.
Sickness of the threats
The sickening nature of the threats and the actions that happen to back them up are things that have been widely reported yet not resoundingly heard. The Taliban exhibit every bit of the nature that is why they need to be defeated. (see quote below)
Ineffective Intervention
The German army is in charge of the area that the article looks at. The troop strength of 600+ in such a wide area is useless. This is made pretty clear;however, the article fails to look at how the pussy mandate the Germans operate under goes a long way in making sure they (German troops) are attacked and that the Taliban feels free to attack school girls.
Angst
The article captures the goodness of the parents and others in the region,that even though they too are Muslims, they believe in girls going to school. Sitting in a home in the West for the most part ill prepares one for wrapping your head around that concept. The people in these areas in Afghanistan are truly victims. Nothing they do helps them. If they stand up, they die. If they turn to NATO, they die. Let’s be honest here. If they submit they eventually will still do something that’ll get them killed or at least brutally punished. 
From the article:
Another threat letter depicts a schoolgirl at the gallows. “We have warned you,” reads the message. “If we now kill schoolgirls, you shouldn’t be surprised.”
Halimi is open in his description of the precarious situation the schools find themselves in. “There is no police there and even the army is afraid to go there,” he says. “What should I do, as a civilian, against the Taliban?”
And this:
Still, the news isn’t all bad. At the girls’ school in Qosh Tappeh, likewise near Kunduz, the school director, a veteran of the mujahedeen, took things into his own hands. When the Taliban showed up to his school for the second time to present their threats, he found a uniquely Afghan solution to the problem. He told his visitors that, when it comes to fighting to the death, he is much more experienced than they. Should they like to find out for sure, he offered, he would be happy to accommodate them.
His threat seemed to have worked. The girls in Qosh Tappeh continue to attend school.
A man grabbed a live swan by the neck and used it as a weapon to attack his opponent during an altercation by the bank of a river in Munich.
I’m sorry animal lovers but that is funny.
Inspired,broken up and numbered for simplicity from the original found in the 100+ range of the comment thread here
1) So why did Mohamamed marry a 6 year old girl,
2) consummate the marriage at 9,
3) take slaves,
4) behead people,
5) steal other people’s property
6) and treat non muslims as 2nd class citizens at best.
7) And why do muslims consider him. “The perfect man”
A haircut you regret an barbaric medical procedure or something in between. I’m curious what people have to offer…. Jump in2thefray
I’ve been critical of Colin Powell in the past and I’ve been given cause to revisit two previous posts to verify that truth.
From In2 Colin Powell 10.19.08
I don’t say he should have any Party loyalty. I am not voting for McCain, so how could I ? I just don’t like to see a degree of dishonesty on his behalf. I vividly remember his live interview from Jordan when some hack lackey cut off the visual after a hand grenade of a question was tossed. You could hear the S of S demanding the camera be brought back. That is something I’ll always admire of him. It is that honesty I’d have expected regarding any type of endorsement.
Who knows though. Perhaps Powell the valiant has only been thrust upon the sword again. He was sent to suffer before the world by W via the UN show. Perhaps his non campaigning endorsement is just another example of his naivety towards politicians.
and from Dear Democrats, Republicans, Americans… 10.24.08
In reverse order I think the RINO’s should be of no comfort to anyone. I don’t know if RINO’s have a comparable counter in the Dems “Blue Dogs” but I do know the one’s that have gone seem to be media whores. I know people will take exception to Powell being called a whore but I doubt his honesty now so it fits.
That was then and this is now ?
I don’t know. I know I’m insanely concerned about there being at least two party government in America so I think we all need the GOP to sort itself out. I see Powell being called out by the likes of Rove and Cheney and Powell standing up for himself. I see the likes of Newt Gingrich coming to Powells side and all in all I see a good thing. Does anyone else see that ?
Who said on “Meet the Press” that “I don’t want to pick a fight with Dick Cheney, but the fact is, the Republican party has to be a broad party that appeals across the country,” adding, “To be a national party, you have to have a big enough tent that you inevitably have fights inside the tent.” Newt via Politico
The Politico piece also touches on the whole Cheney v. Powell thing. I don’t know folks but this dust up may be far more important than the press cycle may present.
Saw a link to a David Steinberg piece on Pajamas Media blog. The entry is titled If Terrorists Misinterpret Islam.
It opens with a salvo at classic liberalism and then delves into defining all ills on the Earth as Islamic or at least totalitarian in nature. It closes out that classic liberals are essentially pathetic and that Iran must be stopped.
That’s my interpretation anyway,you can click the link and decide for yourself.
Three interesting points I found from the author are as follows:
Classic liberalism was clearly defined initially by it’s laissez faire foreign policy and currently by it’s interventionist policy. The blurs and overlaps of modern American liberalism (socialism) and conservatism are cryptically interwoven in the PJ piece and seems to ignore the history of this imo.
The dangerous nations list in the piece is a good one.It seems to be presented in a manner focused on the thesis of the author though. I guess that is proper. I like this one I found at the UK Telegraph better. The range of nations in the Telegraph presentation speaks volumes that any intelligent viewer can appreciate. The citizens and the proponents of the listed nations may not concur,but then again the truth hurts.
Lastly there was a set of questions I took to be directed at the classic liberals who seem to be of such offense to the author.
Do societies ever turn to terroristic, totalitarian behavior solely because of outside oppression, or do the movements arise from within?
The answer is BOTH. Classic liberalism has a long record on this. Hayeks Road to Serfdom comes to mind and speaks loudly to the latter. For the former there are any number of revolutions and revolts that would seem to supply examples.
Is Islam as it is practiced by terrorists and aggressive Islamic countries a new phenomenon? Or does it predate contact with the West?
Sadly the use of any number of ideologies throughout time for the benefit of leaders is part of our collective history. Religious tenets applied to society are very powerful and are not new phenoms borne from Islam. Islam and Sharia etc. as practiced by “aggressive Islamic countries” is a great example of an ideology finding it’s place as a source of control. I venture to say though that the power it holds could’ve been used for good or bad depending on those wielding it.
Is it possible for one religion/culture to be more worthwhile to humanity as a whole than another?
The key word being more. It’s undeniably subjective though. One’s judgement is automatically skewed from the start. A Christian westerner can’t truly relate to what anything may mean to a Mongolian herdsman. Any thoughts,feelings etc. are tinged with the viewers prejudice.
Is it racist to think Islam is inherently violent?
No. No matter your definition of Ummah a faith isn’t a race. Over generalizations are never helpful in an honest argument/dialog. Is it a truthful fact that of the worlds religions Islam is currently connected to international acts of violence ? It is in my opinion and I dare say any sane and honest person of any faith would agree with me. And that is where it must begin. Much like how the Pakistani army has finally arrived into the Swat valley to confront the Taliban, people of all faiths,especially Islam must confront that which threatens us all.
“Today, we have a friend in RNC Chairman Michael Steele, and his bold and courageous speech defines his leadership goals that will guide us all through this most difficult time for our nation.”
That was the Alaskan governors contribution to the RNC Michael Steele love fest. It wasn’t actually a love fest but it captures how pathetic some of the hard core conservatives are lost in the woods as they are.
I will give her this though. Her word choices are consistent and that’s what makes her an idiot.
I asked the question first. Not playing your little games Fray
Which is why during my blog “housecleaning” today Elric will start to magically disappear and won’t return without answering.
You see Elric commenting is a privilege not a right. You’ve been given a lot of latitude and now deserve to be seen as nothing but an ignorant spammer. Take care.
by Free to think, Free to believe
I’ve been spending my time doing that dangerous thing called reading… but to start with let’s begin with a common argument -
The Ticking Bomb; this is where somebody in custody is thought [for whatever reasons] to have planted a bomb and that if the forces of Law and Order don’t find out where it is in time then Innocents will Die…
It is claimed, from time to time, that this is the only argument which would justify torturing the fellow suspected of planting the bomb. I am going to go around the subject but rest assured I will get back to this…
In media torture is sometimes given an importance or romantic idea that it should not have. I’ve just watched the last of the third season of The West Wing and towards the end of that season there is a move based on the information given by an ally from the use of torture [Well, it is supposed to be from torture... and so that's the way I'm going to use it.] the trouble with this is that given the info it is basically something that the torturers would want to hear. In 24 there is a case where a terrorist is apprehended and then their son is threatenned to be shot if they do not reply in a forthright and honest way…
Unfortunately both examples do not show anything useful. Let me explain – in the episode from the West Wing the only thing the President can rely on is that the torturers were satisfied when they heard what they wanted to hear and in ‘24′ the suspect breaks down – unfortunately the example they give is one they might have based on actual facts and the case they recreated it did not actually work…
I’ve been reading whilst I’ve been away and one of the books I read was a torturously thorough examination of this topic – Torture and Democracy by Darius Rejali… The person they threatened that he reported who was confronted by this choice – his son or the truth, did not actually then break… and then they did shoot his offspring.
Indeed memory is one of the first things to go when tortured. Who was one’s childhood sweet heart at school is fine – it will remain sot but and this is the thing – the memories of recent events will deteriate. What Bomb? Which Street? Maybe this one, or was it that, no it was another… Is there a bomb?
These are the things that torture will wipe out. Making torture of someone with a ticking bomb useless. There are various reasons for this and if you are really interested I would recommend the book in its entirety to you, Dear Reader.
If torture is useless regarding the Ticking Bomb then what use has it in other spheres of questioning – none is the somewhat bitter answer. The reason why I think it a bitter truth is that for folk to be so harmed and for no good reason seems an even worse fate than if there was a good reason…
In Northern Ireland folk who were named as dangers to the population at large were hauled off and stuck in camps/prisons – much like Gmo Bay… What this achieved was that folk wrongly fingered were then made actively sympathetic to the cause they were swept up in… In short the camps did not work then and I don’t think Gmo Bay worked yesterday…
To return to the media and how it represents torture the most accurate view of torture on screen that I can remember is that to be found within Lethal Weapon where both of the dogged and heroic detectives are tortured despite their claims of ignorance. Indeed if they could have made stuff up – they would have. How would that have been satisfactory for their torturers? Well, bluntly the same for their torturers and torturers in the real world everywhere.
In ‘Democracy and Torture’ the one film that is examined is The Battle of Algiers where Rejali takes apart the entire dependency that is sometimes shown therein and shows how mistaken the film’s claims are regarding torture. Rejali also shows how much information is extracted by having informants, which are not [needless to say] tortured, and by good detective practices.
Basically, even if you have someone you are torturing who then claims there is a bomb – you would be a better manager of time by stopping the torture and then going out and looking for the bomb, which might not actually exist… The Ticking Bomb justification may make for a good argument for torturing someone but it does not mean you have any chance of finding the bomb by carrying on the torture…
As a postsript regarding a certain practice – waterboarding, if carried out for long enough it will drown the fellow being given this treatment. Alfie’s earlier comment during a post that it was not that bad when he had it done unto him brings to light the way folk learn how they then, given direct orders or other reasons (such as a CO saying ‘Get me that info and I don’t care how you do it!’) those who turn to tortures remember what has been done to them and then replicate such practices… or remember from other fields of operations what other folk have done and then do those…
Those merely undergoing SERE [Survival Evasion Resistance Escape] training (although I admit I may have got that slightly wrong) are trained so that they don’t talk are also as an unforeseen byproduct given a beginner’s course in How To Torture… without even thinking what that would do to them. Chip Frederickson, as championed by Zimbardo, was one who was unlucky enough to be compromised by the system and tried to perform to those he percieved as having authority over his operations and his story is a lesson to us all.
In the end we should say that torture is not, ever, acceptable and the costs that that inflicts – those on the torturers, the tortured and those in the wider world who look on – are not worth it and it is more worthwhile to resist such practices.












